Another Death Blow to Our Rights… To America!

Bernard:

It's one thing to be told of a crime that happened already, its another thing to see it happening slowing before your eyes....

On the up side, we are allowed to fight back when they come-a-calling.

If enough of us fight back hard enough, then maybe we'll win.

Bernard,

I don't think you realize how many people have seen this comming. Have you tried to buy any guns or ammo lately? There has been a huge run on ammo. Guns are flying off the shelves faster than even before the Brady Bill was passed. I work for a sporting goods retailer that is nation wide. We can't get enough ammo to supply one of our store let alone all our stores. Guns are the same many manufacturers are already years behind on fulfilling orders. When it comes there will be a huge fight...

re: #2 - Yes

As American's we've done a pretty @!$%#ty job at holding our elected officials accountable. More than ever we need to stand up for our rights (whether your republican or democrat or third party the Constitution still exists for YOU) and quit pointing fingers. No matter who is to blame, it will affect us all regardless of party affiliation.

Arizona: How did I get included? I never said that the Kennedys, oops, I mean the Mafia were good guys. I keep forgetting that you are supposed to refer to the Kennedys by their club name and not their family.

Well, back to good old Alphonse Gabriel Capone. He was a bda guy because the govenrment told you he was a bad guy just like Jesse James, Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh and all the rest of the American folk heros.

Arizona: How did I get included? I never said that the Kennedys, oops, I mean the Mafia were good guys. I keep forgetting that you are supposed to refer to the Kennedys by their club name and not their family.

Well, back to good old Alphonse Gabriel Capone. He was a bda guy because the govenrment told you he was a bad guy just like Jesse James, Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh and all the rest of the American folk heros.

Mordecai ~ I don't know, you were there responding to NotWithOut in a positive way, so I thought I would include you. Thanks for responding, but will admit I cringed when you lumped Tim McVeigh into the group. I find no redeeming qualities in the man at what I currently know. He, to me, was no better than the ones who caused 911. He killed innocent men, women, and children ... never gave them a chance.

I'm not sure about out here, but back east it is common knowledge that the Kennedy's made their money running liquor from Canada during Prohibition. But, I don't think they had any connection to the Corleone family.

Jesse James robbed banks, David Koresh, granted he scared the government, but they got such flack about the Jim Jones/Jonestown tragedy they probably thought they were doing the right thing, I don't think anyone expected it to end like it did.

Arizona: Every man knows that when you walk in and you are hell bent on making somebody kneel to you, that you are going to run into some folks who will not give in. Someone would have to be abysmally stupid to think that David Koresh was going to kneel before his Federal masters. If they didn't intend to kill him as a show of Federal might against religious houses, they would have parked out side and just stood seige on the compound. Koresh would eventually have no choice but to deal.

Timothy McVeigh was no better and no worse than any other person who takes to the road that he followed. They eventually become folk heroes or like the Kennedys, politicians.

In Spanish "Los valientes mata los valientes!" The brave kill the brave, but when it comes to criminals there is no bravery, no honor, no noble issue. Just a bunch of defective human beings who should not be allowed to exist who just prey on the individuals who are physically weaker than the predator in society.

While Hollywood can make glamour out of Al Capone, John Gotti, John "Legs" Diamond. the Kennedys and all the rest of the crooked and morally bankrupt, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

NotWithOut ~ you are absolutely correct when it comes to us losing our rights and trying to understand just why the government was even involved with Koresh and his followers. Other than my original thought that it was because of the Jim Jones/Jonestown tragedy, they thought they had to get involved.

It will take a smarter person than I to figure a lot of this stuff out. But, I will stand behind the idea that there needs to be more accountability regarding our elected officials. This applies to the very top and to our own local law enforcement. We have to get rid of these special interests groups who continue to make laws without any accountability to our government or us, the people.

Pretty scarey to talk about our Constitution and wanting to take it back when the Federal Government has the Marines, Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, down to State, County, Town and City law behind them.

NotWithOut ... what we need is better and definitely more representation per capita in each state. How in the world can we expect the few to take care of so many. Of course special interests groups come into play. There are too many people with too many issues and the Government is only listening to those who have the money to talk loudly so to speak.

NotWithOut:

They are the real people in charge. When we can get out of the control of them, and their power over us by using debt as a weapon, ...

Debt cannot be used as a weapon over people who do not borrow money.

You should consider that the biggest borrower is the US taxpayer who is in debt by the trillions.

Neither a lender or borrower be - a line from Hamlet by William Shakespeare

"FBI arrest four in alleged plot to bomb ..." NY Daily News

"...New York Terror Suspects Wanted to 'Commit Jihad' ..." Fox News

"FBI, NYPD Arrest 4 in Alleged Plot ..." New York News

"4 Accused of Bombing Plot at Bronx Synagogues" NY Times

"Authorities describe 4 suspects as 'extremely violent men'" MSNBC

"4 arrested in alleged NYC synagogue bomb plot." CNN

All of the 'mainstream' media describe these men as 'suspects' who were 'accused' of 'allegedly' participating in a bomb plot. Thus, they were not tried and convicted by the press, or anyone claiming to represent the judicial or administrative branches of government. I can't find that the FBI called them 'terrorists'. The 'innocent until proven guilty' doctrine still stands.

There are some reports that out-and-out called them terrorists. Those reports came from such sources as barenakedislam.wordpress.com and clipmarks.com . Are these the 'reports' you refer to in your article that called the men 'terrorists' and tried-and-convicted them without trial? Are these the sources of your information?

It seems to me that this is a case of people hearing what they 'want' to hear, rather than what is actually being said. What is an 'illegal accusation'? Do you feel that whatever it is, that these four men are being 'illegally accused' of something?

You've cried out about what you do not want to see - tell us how you would have dealt with the situation had you been in charge.

rsl8r, that's kinda what I was seeing too. They were arrested, not sentenced. Probable cause, right?

The men were, however, given an antiaircraft missile system that was incapable of being fired, as well as homemade bombs containing inert plastic explosives, as part of the undercover investigation, the authorities said.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/4-arrested-in-new-york-terror-plot/

Yeah, those dudes have got to be innocent. I mean, what kind of times are these when I can't own my own anti-aircraft battery? Gotta keep those crop-dusters away somehow!

Can someone here please tell me how this is a deathblow to our rights? It was an undercover sting operation and they bought a friggin' missle system and (fake) bombs!

Justin -

Yep - and I just got my rocket launcher working - bummer. The barn on my neighbor's property was old, anyway - he wasn't using it. Nothing to get upset about. But noooo - now they're going to go all tyrannical on me and deathblow my 2nd amendment rights to own (rocket launcher) arms. Looks like I'll have to get something else for deer season. I wonder if I can find a panzerfaust?

Just where am I going to get replacement rockets for my portable missile battery? I also need some more napalm, could I borrow a cup of it?

^^^^^^^^
This is what bad sarcasm looks like. Just so nobody gets an idea that I actually have or want to have these things.

This is the time when the accused gets a chance to tell their story and call witnesses on their behalf to see if in fact the FBI accusation is as true as it is. It's called Due Process! It's a constitutional right of every American.

Of course. Why do you have a problem with that?

Bernard -

No - my 'logic' tells me that when you, in your article that started this thread, say:

"So now if the FBI says that you are guilty and a 'terrorist' then you are just because they say you are."

you are wrong, at least, as far as I could find. I couldn't find an article that quoted the FBI saying that the guys were guilty or saying that they were terrorists. Others did, but not the FBI or any other representative of the administrative or judicial branches of government. Therefore, the very premise of your article, the very thing that you so vehemently complain about - is not true. It has nothing to do with being OK or not being OK.

How do you know what I believe? To tell you the truth - I don't watch TV much, and hadn't even heard about them until I read your article. Then, I went on an Internet search to see if what you said had any merit. That's the extent of my interest with these guys - I won't follow the story - and will assume that they'll get a fair trial. If, at the trial, the FBI say these folks are guilty - and make a convincing case of it - then yes, they will be found guilty simply because the FBI informant and arresting officers say they are. I believe that's called 'giving eyewitness evidence', and has formed been a major element of our judicial process for quite some time now. Do you advocate doing away with 'giving evidence' as a part of our judicial process?

But, you bring up a good point - it does look like from what I have read that these guys are guilty of planting what they thought was a bomb at a synagogue. However, I believe that sometimes our justice system isn't just concerned with finding guilt or innocence, but rather, determining appropriate punishment - considering whether there are extenuating circumstances, etc.

Again - you've told us that you don't like the way this has been handled. Again I ask - what would you have done? How would you have reported it? Would you have reported the incident, or would you have quietly arrested the suspects and whisked them off surreptitiously to a holding cell? Would you have banned press coverage? How would this thing have been handled correctly, in your mind?

You have written this article, complaining bitterly about the injustice of the way things were done. It's easy to simply complain. Now - be a beacon in the wilderness - tell us how you think things should be done insted of simply how they should not be done.

Just as we are exposing this breakdown of individual rights MORE ON THIS STORY!

Okay, just look at the writing of the article on alternet.org. The writer has an obvious bone to pick and is not just reporting.

Without the assistance of the agent who entrapped them

So them buying fake missiles and bombs is entrapment now?

There are so many Neocons and Jews in NYC looking to push the fear of 'terrorism' to the media we have to be VERY careful.

Wow. Neocons is bad, but Jews? Holy crap. You know I know a Jewish guy and he doesn't have a secret transmitter under that yarmulke, it's just hair.

We should scrutinize EVERYTHING done by the FBI and police. We cannot afford to believe or trust them blindly. Sorry not at this point in history!

Scrutinize, sure. But the chicken little approach of "this place is turning into a police state!" when four dudes get suckered into buying a missile system and some bombs seems a little bit more than scrutinization or criticism. It kinda seems like fear mongering. These guys are given their due process, everything here is going pretty smoothly so far as I can tell. So are you against sting operations then, is that it?

Bernard -

your degree of involvement in these constitutional issues = ZERO

No - my involvement in this particular matter is zero. I don't see it as a constitutional issue, so there is no 'these constitutional issues' as far as I'm concerned. I'm involved in constitutional matters I do consider to be issues - this is not one of them. I'm content to let you handle this one.

That you assume things will always work out well and the authorities have no agenda in this post 9-11 world (ignorance)

No again - I don't assume all things will always work out. I just don't see the issue that you see in this particular instance. I don't see the arrest of these guys as an indication of an evolving fascist state.

And that you think for someone to blow a whistle or express concern is wrong unless they provide what they personally would do instead.

No for the third time. You have a tendency to jump to conclusions and make sweeping generalities that are not supported by the facts in front of you. I never said that expressing concern is wrong. I didn't say that you should stop. I didn't say that you should do something instead of what you're doing. To the contrary - I asked you to provide even more information than you have - I've been encouraging you to speak out. The only difference is that I asked you to make a positive contribution - I asked you to think - and to provide concrete examples of what you think should have been done rather than constantly complain about what was done.

Suppressing dessent ...

If you actually read what I said and think about it - I haven't 'suppressed dissent' - I haven't suggested that you stop - I've asked you to provide additional information. Apparently, you have none - so you make up even more straw men to knock down.

This story was carefully chosen by the Jewish Neocons in NYC

Who? Name names? How do you think you know this?

That this story is now being debunked entirely ...

Again, how do you know this? What information sources do you use? Do you get your information directly from the accused? If not from the 'media', or from the accused - then where? Isn't this really an instance of the 'media' staying on top of things and shining the light of day on what's going on?

Sheesh - be careful out there, the paranoids are after you.

http://open.salon.com/blog/behind_blue_eyes/2009/05/22/obama_proposes_indefinite_preventive_detention_without_trial

I think the video included in this article mentions that.

Thx!!